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	<title>Comments on: Hornblower: Red-Green Vote</title>
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		<title>By: robo the dino</title>
		<link>http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-1606</link>
		<dc:creator>robo the dino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-1606</guid>
		<description>&quot;Whatâ€™s to discourage everyone from just voting green because thatâ€™s whatâ€™s best for the whole ship? Different officers could have conflicting agendas, making it impossible for the captain to please everyone all the time.&quot;

You might consider extending the loyalty/dissent system further along the ship hierarchy. Non-captain PCs will also have subordinates, who are likewise able to pass judgment on those PCs&#039; actions. Defining a set of &quot;clients&quot; who are responsible to the officers also could help develop the different niches the various officers occupy in the ship hierarchy. Ie, the officer in charge of disbursing funds is going to have different interests than the one in charge of keeping the ship stocked. And the officers in command of a bunch of green conscripts is going to be under different pressure than one commanding a unit of crack veterans. This adds another layer of complexity to the political simulation, as smaller units of the whole crew are differentiated by the system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Whatâ€™s to discourage everyone from just voting green because thatâ€™s whatâ€™s best for the whole ship? Different officers could have conflicting agendas, making it impossible for the captain to please everyone all the time.&#8221;</p>
<p>You might consider extending the loyalty/dissent system further along the ship hierarchy. Non-captain PCs will also have subordinates, who are likewise able to pass judgment on those PCs&#8217; actions. Defining a set of &#8220;clients&#8221; who are responsible to the officers also could help develop the different niches the various officers occupy in the ship hierarchy. Ie, the officer in charge of disbursing funds is going to have different interests than the one in charge of keeping the ship stocked. And the officers in command of a bunch of green conscripts is going to be under different pressure than one commanding a unit of crack veterans. This adds another layer of complexity to the political simulation, as smaller units of the whole crew are differentiated by the system.</p>
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		<title>By: ping</title>
		<link>http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>ping</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-41</guid>
		<description>Ship of the line, age of sail naval stories happen to be one of my favorite adventure genres so I&#039;ve off and on tossed around ideas for running a game about it.  As Ben said, we&#039;ve played Poison&#039;d which has a lot of great elements for any ship game but in general it encourages a different genre. To me, this genre is about leadership, loyalty, patriotism, fellowship and survival on the high seas. It&#039;s not about mutiny, betrayal and greed except as they threaten the ideal. I&#039;m interested in exploring the tension between naval obedience, loyalty to the Crown, belief in the Captain, duty your job and the men under you and basic human needs. The fluctuating morale of the crew and commanders then affect the other mechanics of the game which could include many traditional elements like sailing, fighting, espionage etc.

Player decision making often focuses on choosing something (anything!) for your character to do which is not as central in this genre because you know you&#039;re going to do what the captain says.  The players need other choices to make otherwise the game can degenerate into players just following orders, taking away their decision making power (and boring them to tears). 

Some red-green vote scenes might have a lot of roleplaying and discussion among the senior officers while others might just be a straight vote because it&#039;s not always appropriate to have a discussion. Either way, the ship&#039;s morale changes as a direct result of player action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ship of the line, age of sail naval stories happen to be one of my favorite adventure genres so I&#8217;ve off and on tossed around ideas for running a game about it.  As Ben said, we&#8217;ve played Poison&#8217;d which has a lot of great elements for any ship game but in general it encourages a different genre. To me, this genre is about leadership, loyalty, patriotism, fellowship and survival on the high seas. It&#8217;s not about mutiny, betrayal and greed except as they threaten the ideal. I&#8217;m interested in exploring the tension between naval obedience, loyalty to the Crown, belief in the Captain, duty your job and the men under you and basic human needs. The fluctuating morale of the crew and commanders then affect the other mechanics of the game which could include many traditional elements like sailing, fighting, espionage etc.</p>
<p>Player decision making often focuses on choosing something (anything!) for your character to do which is not as central in this genre because you know you&#8217;re going to do what the captain says.  The players need other choices to make otherwise the game can degenerate into players just following orders, taking away their decision making power (and boring them to tears). </p>
<p>Some red-green vote scenes might have a lot of roleplaying and discussion among the senior officers while others might just be a straight vote because it&#8217;s not always appropriate to have a discussion. Either way, the ship&#8217;s morale changes as a direct result of player action.</p>
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		<title>By: ben robbins</title>
		<link>http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>ben robbins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 23:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-39</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Heya Ben, have you tried Poisonâ€™d yet? Iâ€™d love to run it for you some time. Itâ€™s pirates, rather than military, but the theme of the captains authority is central to the game.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
	
Hey Tony! Yep, we played a session of Poison&#039;d. It&#039;s good stuff, but since it&#039;s all about overthrowing the captain or constantly vying for authority it encourages a lot of things that go opposite of a &quot;the captain is the captain no matter what, mutiny is the greatest sin&quot; game. Like the support the captain mechanic you mentioned -- it&#039;s really slanted to encourage the subordinates to take selfish benefit for themselves, so you&#039;d have to slant things the other direction to reflect a law-abiding ship where that&#039;s not the norm.

For the Hornblower idea we were thinking more along the lines that disapproving the captain usually _did_ hurt you and the entire ship, since it meant things weren&#039;t working as well, but you might do it because you were opposed to what the captain was doing (tactically or just because of roleplaying issues, like flogging someone you didn&#039;t think should be flogged).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Heya Ben, have you tried Poisonâ€™d yet? Iâ€™d love to run it for you some time. Itâ€™s pirates, rather than military, but the theme of the captains authority is central to the game.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Hey Tony! Yep, we played a session of Poison&#8217;d. It&#8217;s good stuff, but since it&#8217;s all about overthrowing the captain or constantly vying for authority it encourages a lot of things that go opposite of a &#8220;the captain is the captain no matter what, mutiny is the greatest sin&#8221; game. Like the support the captain mechanic you mentioned &#8212; it&#8217;s really slanted to encourage the subordinates to take selfish benefit for themselves, so you&#8217;d have to slant things the other direction to reflect a law-abiding ship where that&#8217;s not the norm.</p>
<p>For the Hornblower idea we were thinking more along the lines that disapproving the captain usually _did_ hurt you and the entire ship, since it meant things weren&#8217;t working as well, but you might do it because you were opposed to what the captain was doing (tactically or just because of roleplaying issues, like flogging someone you didn&#8217;t think should be flogged).</p>
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		<title>By: tonydowler</title>
		<link>http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>tonydowler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-35</guid>
		<description>Heya Ben, have you tried Poison&#039;d yet? I&#039;d love to run it for you some time. It&#039;s pirates, rather than military, but the theme of the captains authority is central to the game. There are a couple of gems in there that you might find interesting (and that have shades of the hornblower idea you&#039;re playing with here).

In Poison&#039;d, in a fight  or battle, the captain can hand out his/her dice to other crewmen. This is asking for help, giving orders, and so on. Each player who gets a die, adds another one to it. They may then roll those dice on the captain&#039;s side. However, they can also choose to withhold their aid and gain resources instead. It plays captainship as an authority thing, but also a trust thing.

And then there&#039;s how you become captain. Getting elected captain is as likely as not to involve a bargain. When you strike a bargain, you give your soul in hock to the person you bargained with. Until the bargain is somehow fulfilled, they can then choose to withhold that many dice in a conflict (one time only, and thus dissolving the bargain).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heya Ben, have you tried Poison&#8217;d yet? I&#8217;d love to run it for you some time. It&#8217;s pirates, rather than military, but the theme of the captains authority is central to the game. There are a couple of gems in there that you might find interesting (and that have shades of the hornblower idea you&#8217;re playing with here).</p>
<p>In Poison&#8217;d, in a fight  or battle, the captain can hand out his/her dice to other crewmen. This is asking for help, giving orders, and so on. Each player who gets a die, adds another one to it. They may then roll those dice on the captain&#8217;s side. However, they can also choose to withhold their aid and gain resources instead. It plays captainship as an authority thing, but also a trust thing.</p>
<p>And then there&#8217;s how you become captain. Getting elected captain is as likely as not to involve a bargain. When you strike a bargain, you give your soul in hock to the person you bargained with. Until the bargain is somehow fulfilled, they can then choose to withhold that many dice in a conflict (one time only, and thus dissolving the bargain).</p>
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		<title>By: ben robbins</title>
		<link>http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>ben robbins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-24</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;This does seem like more of an ars ludi post FWIW.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

All ideas from the team (instead of just me) go over here. I&#039;m also using this blog to show early bits of game development that might get into projects. Hornblower is not exactly likely to emerge as a full game, but still...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;This does seem like more of an ars ludi post FWIW.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>All ideas from the team (instead of just me) go over here. I&#8217;m also using this blog to show early bits of game development that might get into projects. Hornblower is not exactly likely to emerge as a full game, but still&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lafferty</title>
		<link>http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lafferty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 02:06:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-22</guid>
		<description>interesting. (This does seem like more of an ars ludi post FWIW).
Re: the issue of how to keep someone from always voting green - If you find a non-kludgy and effective way to do this, I&#039;d be interested to hear it. The suggestion from Scholz sounds like it could be worth a shot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>interesting. (This does seem like more of an ars ludi post FWIW).<br />
Re: the issue of how to keep someone from always voting green &#8211; If you find a non-kludgy and effective way to do this, I&#8217;d be interested to hear it. The suggestion from Scholz sounds like it could be worth a shot.</p>
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		<title>By: Scholz</title>
		<link>http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Scholz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lamemage.com/blog/index.php/14/hornblower-red-green-vote/#comment-21</guid>
		<description>To answer your second question, what about having a red vote equal a &quot;get out of jail free&quot; card of sorts. So if a Lieuie is worried about the situation, he can play a red card. Then if the crew starts to mutiny, he gets a special chance to quell the riot because he played the Red card (crew sympathy). Or, by playing a red card when the Captain decides to broadside the superior ship, means that the officer can reroll a defense roll (or whatever mechanic you have), or escape into the other ship&#039;s blindspot, because he kept the ship &quot;slightly at angle&quot; to the opponent, thus giving them an out, in case things didn&#039;t work out. 

Of course, when the Red card is played, it becomes public, and the Captain needs to decide what to do. And it there are too many red cards, morale and efficacy drop precipitously. So if everyone &quot;holds&quot; back from the captain&#039;s strategy they are doomed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To answer your second question, what about having a red vote equal a &#8220;get out of jail free&#8221; card of sorts. So if a Lieuie is worried about the situation, he can play a red card. Then if the crew starts to mutiny, he gets a special chance to quell the riot because he played the Red card (crew sympathy). Or, by playing a red card when the Captain decides to broadside the superior ship, means that the officer can reroll a defense roll (or whatever mechanic you have), or escape into the other ship&#8217;s blindspot, because he kept the ship &#8220;slightly at angle&#8221; to the opponent, thus giving them an out, in case things didn&#8217;t work out. </p>
<p>Of course, when the Red card is played, it becomes public, and the Captain needs to decide what to do. And it there are too many red cards, morale and efficacy drop precipitously. So if everyone &#8220;holds&#8221; back from the captain&#8217;s strategy they are doomed.</p>
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